March Against Isreal

[:Vampiress:]

National Demonstration for Palestine
May 10, 2008
FREE PALESTINE

END THE SIEGE ON GAZA – FOR THE RIGHT OF RETURN – END ISRAELI OCCUPATION

Assemble 1pm Temple Underground station / Victoria Embankment, rally in Trafalgar Square.

Organised by: British Muslim Initiative, Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Palestinian Forum in Britain.

I finally got the dates and times.

[Gotlieb Alexander]

Sounds interesting but I don't want to go because I suspect it will be taken over by religion and the politics will be sidelined

[kaity221]

Is this demo a big one, or is it just local people shouting, sounds good.

[:Vampiress:]

It's the big one, it's national march which will hopefully turn out thousands. Like the Anti-War one.

[SyedMohsin]

It's the big one, it's national march which will hopefully turn out thousands. Like the Anti-War one.

The only day im fully busy!!!!!!!!!

[PKDhande]

Same day as an international protest against the Church of Scientology.

Also the day of the Battle of the Broadcasters, and the Birmingham CYP Parliament launch...

[:Vampiress:]

That demonstration was the most inspiring event i have visited so far in my life.
The speeches i heard were so empowering and i could honestly say i feel really sorry for anyone who missed it as it was one of the best things i've been too.
PS. I met George Galloway! In your face everyone!
His speech was the best and i had one of my dreams fulfilled.

[EmmaGallen]

That demonstration was the most inspiring event i have visited so far in my life.
The speeches i heard were so empowering and i could honestly say i feel really sorry for anyone who missed it as it was one of the best things i've been too.
PS. I met George Galloway! In your face everyone!
His speech was the best and i had one of my dreams fulfilled.

Did he purr?

[:Vampiress:]

Speakers include:
Dr Mustafa Barghouti
Olfat Mahmoud, from Bourj al Barajneh camp in Beirut
Prof Manuel Hassassian
Tony Benn
Caroline Lucas MEP
Hugh Lanning, DSG PCS
Baroness Jenny Tonge
Richard Burden MP

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[:Vampiress:]

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My wristband
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[:Vampiress:]

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[:Vampiress:]

Orthoxdox Jews come out to support Palestine.
Jews for Justice

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[:Vampiress:]

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PM of Palestine speaking on the screen.
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[:Vampiress:]

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Sis working the Palestinian flag
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Just before speeches.
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My favourite picture and protester in this demo.
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[:Vampiress:]

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Photographers - Rabbi's got alot of press.
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[Pioneer]

I want it known I have no intentions of going, and Israel has my personal support.

[matt christodoulou]

I want it known I have no intentions of going, and Israel has my personal support.

Me too, this problem goes all the way to the Old Testament, with Abrabham in the middle of it. Since then, Israel has been treated the worst nation in the world. But recently,[50-100 years] Israel have made people stop bulling them and want the World, that no-one should treat them, so horrible, like before.

Israel may be accused of some of these things, which may be true, but Palistine are not be Angels, either. Their are some OTT Islamic followers from that country, which so some shocking things. But no one sees that.

[:Vampiress:]

I want it known I have no intentions of going, and Israel has my personal support.

Luckily for us that means crap all. I hope you never go near any seat of power. You support a nation carrying a active aparthied against the originals occupants of Palestien. Not only that I refuse to hear it being called Isreal. Isreal is a prophet of god a benevolent and merciful prohet. That back stabbing bloody nation built on palestinian blood deserves no such title or recognition.

[:Vampiress:]

Me too, this problem goes all the way to the Old Testament, with Abrabham in the middle of it. Since then, Israel has been treated the worst nation in the world. But recently,[50-100 years] Israel have made people stop bulling them and want the World, that no-one should treat them, so horrible, like before.
Israel may be accused of some of these things, which may be true, but Palistine are not be Angels, either. Their are some OTT Islamic followers from that country, which so some shocking things. But no one sees that.

You stand for no type of liberty. That title on your signiture is misleading. Isreal is the worst nation in the world. They are America's little lapdogs and the fact THEY are allowed to have nuclears is beyond me. Being anti-isreali is not being anti-semetic and don't try to associate the two. Isreal is not Judaism. Do you support democracy? Because if you do why are you denying palestinians right to it? If you do support democracy and not everyones right to it you are the worst type of human being.
Palestinians are the ones who live in ghettos and are refused basic human living rights. Palestinians are the ones who die in labour or sickness because Isreali's refuse to let them go to hopsitals who's eclectricity they have cut. Isreal are the ones in the wrong.

[Pioneer]

You cannot make those kinds of judgements, standing in Israel's defence isn't standing against liberty, democracy and Palestine. Israel has fought bloody hard to have what it does, it deserves it, it's not the bad guy here, they were invaded first, they fought, then retreated to allow Palestine to have Gaza and the Hamas launched missles at fleeing Israeli citizens, does that sound like a fair thing to do? Palestine has acted appalling, no better than Israel, and they don't deserve any more than they have until they can grow up a bit.

[:Vampiress:]

Standing for Israel is standing against liberty and democracy as that is what they are denying the Palestinians.
The Palestinians democratically elected Hamas, what did Israel do? Refuse to destroy the elections, assisinated members AND starved the Palestinians as punishment.
Israel is no model of democracy.
What HAVE they had? UK double crossed Palestinians, we caused the war.
What has Israel fought for? They've had top of the range weapons GIVEN to them by US. And who has been in the other end of those missiles and bombs? Civilians. Children. Who Israel has attacked.

Israel deseves no pity nor deserves no support from anyone who has a conscience and supports Liberty.

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THAT is what Israel stands for. Murder and Blood.

[Pioneer]

I understand you feel strongly on the matter, but you cannot judge everyone else for not sharing your opinion, I see things a different way, and that photo just seems like you're tugging at the heart strings, rather than making a valid point, and if you wish to play emotions I shall follow suit. I bet I could come up with one about the hundreds of Israeli civilians who were unnecessarily butchered by Hamas missiles whilst leaving Gaza and giving Palestine what they wanted, that is the epitomy of sour grapes, and anything Palestine gets now will be the fault of Hamas and will be happily deserved, those civilians didn't start the war and they weren't involved, but Hamas still saw fit to blast them all out of existence.

[Matt. P]

You cannot make those kinds of judgements, standing in Israel's defence isn't standing against liberty, democracy and Palestine.

Then why does it deny Palestinian people the vote, attack protesters, burn down ministery buildings and then blockade vital aid and supplies when Palestine voted for an anti-israeli Hamas government. Supporting democracy is one thing, punishing people for voting the wrong way and the installing an unelected, corrupt regime under Fatah is another.

They then turn around and say "be democratic, don't use violence to solve your problems when you can vote and be ignored, pretty please..."

it's not the bad guy here, they were invaded first, they fought, then retreated to allow Palestine to have Gaza and the Hamas launched missles at fleeing Israeli citizens, does that sound like a fair thing to do?

How were they invaded first? In 1948 Jews made less than 10% of the population of the mandate of palestine. After a terror raid by Israeli nationalist groups against the British government, Britain decided to withdraw and with the UN's backing it was to be split into two states. The native arab palestinians refused as they made of 90% of the population. The Israeli's ignored them and with backing took over 80% of the land, extradicting millions of palestinians into refugees, the largest refugee movement in the world since WW2. They then invaded the rest, as well as Egypt and Syria in a "pre-emptive defense" and got all "shi*ty" then Syria and Egypt "cowardly" attacked their own occupied territoy (kind of like how French people "invaded" occupied France in 1944).

Did Hamas fire missiles at fleeing citizens. It is possible. Did Israel shoot civilians, fire missiles into refugee camps, shoot protestors, enforce Israeli-only areas and remove any palestinians from their homes before demolishing them? Yes.

Israel may be accused of some of these things

I could accuse South Africa and Germany of a few things too. Aprtheid, segregation of rights, ghettos, ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation, extradition, collective punishment...all illegal under the Geneva convention and condemed by the EU, but prevented by America.

[Pioneer]

Israel was invaded by a co-alition of Arab states before that and was forced to defend itself, all the tactics used are methods for winning wars, and because Israel uses them does that make it a bad country? No, we brits used such methods ourselves before, are we monsters? Of course not!

Palestine cannot claim to be the victim, they posted Hamas snipers in their buildings and proceeded to shoot Israeli soldiers and civilians from them, but then go crying to the rest of the world when Israel knocks the buildings down so they can't do it anymore.

[Matt. P]

Here's the state of Palestine at the moment.

They have no "recovered" a majority of the land invaded after the 6 day war. However it is split up into small communities seperated by road blocks and israeli-only areas, usually luxury flats located next to Palestine reugee camps of "ghetto" (a historic term which has the same meaning: citites when certain religious groups are imprsioned by walls and unable to leave and suffer extreme poverty/lack of freedom because of a totalitarian authority. It just depends which authority it is that makes it accpetable).

Meanwhile the new wall...

http://www.ism-london.org.uk/images/faq_stop_the_wall/wall.jpg

is 3 meters high and topped with razor wire, in addition to minefields, razor wire, sniper nests and gun emplacements is being built for the israeli's "protection". It is understandable if the Palestinians 5th, 6th and, hell, all their armies attacks but Palestine doesn't have any... instead it reminds me of this...

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What id does achieve is a) cutting the "prime" choices of land from Palestine to the Isaeli side, just as the farmland and water resources, leaving the rocks for Palestine (see below). b) allow the construction fo israeli settlements, making it impossible for governemnts to call on withdrawl despite being illegal under the UN. c) seperarates the Palestinian settlements and has a strong psychological message to the Palestinians not to resists, a sign of an oppressor of building a phenomenal show of military might overlooking your home, not long after the occasion rumble of tanks through the place, published politcal arrest/protests from around Palestine and constand roadblocks/ flybys. No doubt the have been reading up on Kafka's "castle"...
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[Pioneer]

Feh, you could argue that the same is happening everywhere else all over the World, boundries ebb and flow all the time, and Israel is protecting itself, I see no problem, although it is unfortunate that the Palestinian people are confined in ghettos, which I would object to, but Hamas brought it on themselves, Israel had retreated, and it fired missiles at the retreating civilians, would you expect Israel not to lay the smackdown for such an act!?

[Matt. P]

all the tactics used are methods for winning wars, and because Israel uses them does that make it a bad country? No, we brits used such methods ourselves before, are we monsters? Of course not!

We did not use apartheid to win world war two, nor did we extradite germans from their homes and build British-only areas. In fact we didn't even take any of their territory. So it does make it a bad country?

And yes, we did use such methods in our empire. But don't be so quick to answer the question "does that make us monsters?"

Palestine cannot claim to be the victim, they posted Hamas snipers in their buildings and proceeded to shoot Israeli soldiers and civilians from them, but then go crying to the rest of the world when Israel knocks the buildings down so they can't do it anymore.

So, would you say then soliders use snipers against military targets in Iraq, Afghanistan, WW2 it makes the enemy "victims", seeing as they invaded. Why does Israeli military forces in territory not belonging them not count as an invasion for some reason, and firing back is a cowardly terrorist attack?

Oh, and I asusme their must be something like 100,000 snipers in palestine then, assuming 1 sniper per building. "And then that justifies what they're doign anyway..."

[Pioneer]

Again man, be civil for God's sake, I'm refusing to debate anything with anyone who can't show common courtest and consideration for other's opinions, that is known as bigotry and is frowned upon in modern society.

I agree we never used apartheid, but I also said that I did object to them using ghettos, that IS wrong. However, Palestine could not hope to do what it did to retreating Israelis without retribution.

We were never monsters, and most countries under our control were better off under British control than their own.

Also if snipers are going to snipe from buildings, you can't say the Israelis aren't justified in tearing them down, but to build their own buildings on top is somewhat questionable, but it IS war, and rules of engagement are different in war, things happen differently.

[Matt. P]

Feh, you could argue that the same is happening everywhere else all over the World, boundries ebb and flow all the time, and Israel is protecting itself


And flowing... and flowing... and flowing ever outwards... and all the time "prtoecting" itself by rebuilding a proverbial Hadrians wall.

Israel had retreated, and it fired missiles at the retreating civilians, would you expect Israel not to lay the smackdown for such an act!?

Have you got any other argument other than the unsupported claim that Hamas fired at civilains keaving a occupied territoy in a war zone. You might as well let the germans bombs off to even out Dresden. And you make it seem like Hamas was unprovoked and Israel was compeltley passive, even assuming this did happen...

I'll assume it did happen if you "assume" that Israel bombed Tyre in 2007, Iraq in 1988, blockaded Palestine for voting "incorrectly", and threatened to kill anyone within 10 miles of the Lebannon border for being a terrorist... that is after, ahem, asking any non-terrorists to abandon their homeland and walk with all their possesions on foot to refugee camps. That is after all the strategic target "ie. bridges" had been demolished by Israeli planes first.

[Pioneer]

There are no deal on facts, those amy have happened I don't know, but my example did happen, and I'm repeating it a lot because everyone appears to be glossing over it, the only time it seems to have been acknowledged as an argument at all was just then.

[Matt. P]

but it IS war, and rules of engagement are different in war, things happen differently.

Tht is fair enough. Both Israel and Palestineare to blame for attrocites going on. However occupation is not a mandate of war and if they were to leave the rest of Palestine, which they don't need anyway and do as we bothe agree on (remove walls, stop the "ghetto-ing" of cities" when they'll be no reason to fight and greatly facilitated peace process.


Apologies if I sounded bellicose or patronising before.

[Matt. P]

We were never monsters, and most countries under our control were better off under British control than their own.

I wonder if the Zulu, Tanzanians, Malay, Indians and Maori beg to differ 200 years ago. I doubt Palestine however has benefited under Israeli rule.

[Pioneer]

I shall forgive the pugnation :) It's clearly a subject you feel strongly about.

As I have pointed out before, much to your annoyance Israel did retreat, and were fired on as a reward, however, I would agree with you in that they ought not to be sectioning off the people, but the land? Well in War land often changes hand, and rather frequently. To be honest we ought to evacuate Gaza and nuke it and say argue over that you bunch of babies, but I'm sure that wouldn't be welcomed particularly warmly hehe...

[Paul]

Again man, be civil for God's sake, I'm refusing to debate anything with anyone who can't show common courtest and consideration for other's opinions, that is known as bigotry and is frowned upon in modern society.

I agree we never used apartheid, but I also said that I did object to them using ghettos, that IS wrong. However, Palestine could not hope to do what it did to retreating Israelis without retribution.

We were never monsters, and most countries under our control were better off under British control than their own.

Also if snipers are going to snipe from buildings, you can't say the Israelis aren't justified in tearing them down, but to build their own buildings on top is somewhat questionable, but it IS war, and rules of engagement are different in war, things happen differently.

The thing is - Hamas (and other groups) are a legitimate resistance because pretty much every country refers to it as 'The Occupied Territories'. Just like the French resistance and the (old) IRA & IRB they are legitimate

[:Vampiress:]

I understand you feel strongly on the matter, but you cannot judge everyone else for not sharing your opinion, I see things a different way, and that photo just seems like you're tugging at the heart strings, rather than making a valid point, and if you wish to play emotions I shall follow suit. I bet I could come up with one about the hundreds of Israeli civilians who were unnecessarily butchered by Hamas missiles whilst leaving Gaza and giving Palestine what they wanted, that is the epitomy of sour grapes, and anything Palestine gets now will be the fault of Hamas and will be happily deserved, those civilians didn't start the war and they weren't involved, but Hamas still saw fit to blast them all out of existence.

I feel very strongly. I don't expect you to share my opinion I expect you to see the facts. I was just showing how a father and son were killed when they were hiding. That is how the Isreali's cowed the palestinians. You want to play on emotions do it. You show me the 8 people killed in the Isreali university the highest number killed that year. I'll show you the 200 hundred killed in the same day in a raid in Gaza.
Israli civillians butchered, you do realise that to palestinians eyes none of them are civillians. It's compulsory to do military service so therefore they were all soilders so none are innocent and none are civillians.
Hamas stand for palestine and they want freedom, they offered peace and Isreal refused it. Who is in the wrong?
If someone shoots bullets at you, you don't talk you grab the nearest gun and shoot back.

[Pioneer]

I know that Israel has compulsory military service, 3 of my friends are there now, and they've told me their side of it, no one wants to be in the military, they're forced to, but that's another matter, no one has yet addressed why Palestine doesn't deserve their hammering after how they treated the Israeli retreat.

[:Vampiress:]

How did they treat it?
You expect them to treat people who have basically denied and oppressed them for 60 years as friends?
Huh maybe they should of rolled out the welcome matt and ran around like hippied while their friends and family were shot. Sorry that is not how the world runs. Ah so that's why you pro-isreal a poor reason in my opinion. Also you do realise you have about as much hope being PM and pro-Isreali as I do of being pro-Isreali.

[Pioneer]

My personal integrity is not for sale. If it means I won't go to number 10, then I would rather have my personal integrity, but I don't agree with you, the current PM and Tony Blair and David Cameron and Nick Clegg all support Israel.

Furthermore I wouldn't expect a welcome, you are just being facetious and immature, I would expect them to allow the Israelis to retreat and for the Hamas to start rebuilding their own homes, not draw Israel back into war and go crying to the rest of the world, that's like the smallest kid in the play ground running up to a jock kicking him in the crotch and running to the dinner ladies.

I would expect both sides to treat the situation as a war, not a massacre and not a tea-party, but Israel are no more to blame than Palestine, or Hamas at least.

[Hamsterwaffle]

I wonder if the Zulu, Tanzanians, Malay, Indians and Maori beg to differ 200 years ago. I doubt Palestine however has benefited under Israeli rule.

There's a difference between what Israel is doing and what the British did, Israel blows up buildings, the British built them.

[Pioneer]

I take it you're on Palestine's side then Hamaster?

[Hamsterwaffle]

I take it you're on Palestine's side then Hamaster?

Frankly I think both sides are just as bad as each other.

[Pioneer]

Fair enough, I think that too pretty much, but Palestine were stupid to attack the Israelites when they were retreating, they would have had Gaza if they hadn't been so blood-thirsty.

[:Vampiress:]

My personal integrity is not for sale. If it means I won't go to number 10, then I would rather have my personal integrity, but I don't agree with you, the current PM and Tony Blair and David Cameron and Nick Clegg all support Israel.
Furthermore I wouldn't expect a welcome, you are just being facetious and immature, I would expect them to allow the Israelis to retreat and for the Hamas to start rebuilding their own homes, not draw Israel back into war and go crying to the rest of the world, that's like the smallest kid in the play ground running up to a jock kicking him in the crotch and running to the dinner ladies.
I would expect both sides to treat the situation as a war, not a massacre and not a tea-party, but Israel are no more to blame than Palestine, or Hamas at least.

Had you any integrity I doubt anyone would want to buy it. the PM does not support Isreal and neither do Cameron or Clegg. They have of course recognise them but that is expected of Britain. They do not condone anything Isreal have done. Although Brown greeted Isreal's 60th anniversary of Nakbar on Saturday. And I tell you that he's days in office are limited.
You said that it was there fault they didn't allow Isreal to withdraw, Isreal has never withdrawn it has illegally occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip every day since they gave it to palestinians. Do you think had they left and let them get on this would be happening? No it's because they continue to occupy and build settlements on Palestinian lands. And the apartheid wall and Isreal refusing them water, aid, electricity and other essentials. This is not some petty simple war your trying to make out to be. Palestinians would be happy if Isreal left them alone in the lands Isreal have even recognized as theres. Not only that but you support that country that is violation of countless UN laws.
Maturity is overrated.

[Pioneer]

You are bang out of order insinuating that I don't have any integrity, and you can ask anyone in the World who's met me or conversed with me other than yourself to find that out, I am many things, but a man of no integrity I am not. Cameron supports them he is a self proclaimed zionist, and Brown supports them too, though he hasn't publicly condoned Israel's actions, by celebrating their 60th he is condoning their actions.

I don't agree with the apartheid and I wish they wouldn't do that, it is wrong. However, you are wrong on the point of retreat, they weren't fully retreating, but they were pulling back and allowing the Palestinians some of their land back, but were fired upon, so they went back in.

Again we are both over-simplifying the situation, you make out that Palestine is completely innocent, but no innocent nation uses suicide bombers.

Israel is probably violating UN laws, but I don't make judgements on actions based on what laws they are breaking, unless I made the law, which I haven't, yes they aren't being quite as honourable in combat as they should be, and there are rules of engagement they should be following, but as I have already said, Palestine hardly has a clean slate, they're just the 'victims' right now because they're losing.

[:Vampiress:]

You are bang out of order insinuating that I don't have any integrity, and you can ask anyone in the World who's met me or conversed with me other than yourself to find that out, I am many things, but a man of no integrity I am not. Cameron supports them he is a self proclaimed zionist, and Brown supports them too, though he hasn't publicly condoned Israel's actions, by celebrating their 60th he is condoning their actions.
I don't agree with the apartheid and I wish they wouldn't do that, it is wrong. However, you are wrong on the point of retreat, they weren't fully retreating, but they were pulling back and allowing the Palestinians some of their land back, but were fired upon, so they went back in.
Again we are both over-simplifying the situation, you make out that Palestine is completely innocent, but no innocent nation uses suicide bombers.
Israel is probably violating UN laws, but I don't make judgements on actions based on what laws they are breaking, unless I made the law, which I haven't, yes they aren't being quite as honourable in combat as they should be, and there are rules of engagement they should be following, but as I have already said, Palestine hardly has a clean slate, they're just the 'victims' right now because they're losing.

Man don't have a heart attack, it was a come back that was begging to be said. You should have seen it coming.
Cameron's a zionist ey? And what proof would there be of that. He's too savvy in politics to do such a thing. His votes would decrease so bad, especially since no one really likes Zionism. Especially Catholics.
He hasn't condoned Isreal but as PM and a leader he was expected to congratulate Isreal, a mistake he will see. That's what we get for hiring a PM with no backbone.
So it's okay that they were slowly retreating in a land they were in illegally in the first place. Do you know why they were shot at? Because they were killing hundreds of people while they were retreating and no one with any type of dignity would see that happen to their fellow civillians and not take up arms. Palestinians are not cowards.
I always root for the underdog it's a occupational hazard. But even you can see that Isreal are in the majority of wrong here.
There is no probably about it. They ARE violating tons of UN laws and sanctions I can't remember the exact figure bit it goes over 50.
Why shouldn't they have used sucicide bombings? Should they have given mercy where none was shown? I don't agree with it but I understand there need to. I don't like to think anyone would be forced to commit suicide to fight for what they believe in.
They were always the victims, nobody just wanted to say so because it was soon after WW2 and people were afraid of being called anti-semetic.

[Liam Hannan]

Fair enough, I think that too pretty much, but Palestine were stupid to attack the Israelites when they were retreating, they would have had Gaza if they hadn't been so blood-thirsty.

I'm sure I've read about this in the Guardian weekly.

Don't the palestinians claim they were provoked?

[:Vampiress:]

Did he purr?

Lol, Someone did come with a picture of him drinking milk out of that woman's hand. But they were kicked out, guess it offended him.

[SyedMohsin]

Dear people,

I know you guys were probably wondering, wheres that random dude who always talks about Palestine, is he dead? The answer is no Im still alive and I thank a dear brother on this forum for directing be tothis thread because believe it or not I completely overlooked it.

Israel was invaded by a co-alition of Arab states before that and was forced to defend itself, all the tactics used are methods for winning wars, and because Israel uses them does that make it a bad country? No, we brits used such methods ourselves before, are we monsters? Of course not!

Palestine cannot claim to be the victim, they posted Hamas snipers in their buildings and proceeded to shoot Israeli soldiers and civilians from them, but then go crying to the rest of the world when Israel knocks the buildings down so they can't do it anymore.

Israel was invaded by a calition of arab states and Israel was forced to defend themselves. Completely ignoring the fact why these arab states actualy attacked Israel. I will let you answer that.

You are right Israel has the right to defend itself, everyone has a right to defend themselves, but then how could you look down upon those arab states who have a right to defend themselves against a brutal regime which has taken away the very basic human rights a person is allowed to have, food water electicity educationetc etc.

Again yes I agree Palestinians have done certain things which I dont accept but on the contrary, Israeli warship guns down a whole family of palestinians inluding 3 children under the age of 6 on the beach. The Wall which had blocked out all Arab settlements from Israeli settlements now has outposts and towers with hundreds of snipers in which police the people living in these walls. The ebst thing would b to watch the documentary The Iron Wall which i hae posted on another thread.


Again man, be civil for God's sake, I'm refusing to debate anything with anyone who can't show common courtest and consideration for other's opinions, that is known as bigotry and is frowned upon in modern society.

I agree we never used apartheid, but I also said that I did object to them using ghettos, that IS wrong. However, Palestine could not hope to do what it did to retreating Israelis without retribution.

We were never monsters, and most countries under our control were better off under British control than their own.

Also if snipers are going to snipe from buildings, you can't say the Israelis aren't justified in tearing them down, but to build their own buildings on top is somewhat questionable, but it IS war, and rules of engagement are different in war, things happen differently.

Most countries were better of under British control but they were our slaves. As Norman Finklestien says "How could I not respect those who would ratherdie walking on there feet then live crawling on there knees". Even now look at saudi arabia jordan egypt. They might be better of with western backed governments but now there people are living as slaves to America. Yes they have that right to live as slaves f America but how can we not respect those who would rather not be slaves and resist.

In war you can attack even demolish what you believe are enemy buildings butto clear out villages and as you said buildyour own settements over them is definately not in the rules of ingagement.

There are no deal on facts, those amy have happened I don't know, but my example did happen, and I'm repeating it a lot because everyone appears to be glossing over it, the only time it seems to have been acknowledged as an argument at all was just then.

What they did was wrong but how can you justify that by imprisoning a whole race of people? I agree mot hings Hamaz did bring upon themselves but the responses were not in defence or even counter attack, they wre made on the foundations Israel is made on, No Arabs In Our Lands. Simple.

I shall forgive the pugnation :) It's clearly a subject you feel strongly about.

As I have pointed out before, much to your annoyance Israel did retreat, and were fired on as a reward, however, I would agree with you in that they ought not to be sectioning off the people, but the land? Well in War land often changes hand, and rather frequently. To be honest we ought to evacuate Gaza and nuke it and say argue over that you bunch of babies, but I'm sure that wouldn't be welcomed particularly warmly hehe...

You speak as if both have equal claim to the land. The red indians had mroe claim to America then the British.

My personal integrity is not for sale. If it means I won't go to number 10, then I would rather have my personal integrity, but I don't agree with you, the current PM and Tony Blair and David Cameron and Nick Clegg all support Israel.

Furthermore I wouldn't expect a welcome, you are just being facetious and immature, I would expect them to allow the Israelis to retreat and for the Hamas to start rebuilding their own homes, not draw Israel back into war and go crying to the rest of the world, that's like the smallest kid in the play ground running up to a jock kicking him in the crotch and running to the dinner ladies.

I would expect both sides to treat the situation as a war, not a massacre and not a tea-party, but Israel are no more to blame than Palestine, or Hamas at least.

Israelhas commited much more attrocities then Hamas ever has. You cant justify Israels responses in any case.What we see is the destruction of a natio, not retaliation for an attack.

There's a difference between what Israel is doing and what the British did, Israel blows up buildings, the British built them.

Israel blows up building Britain indirectly blows up buildings.

Fair enough, I think that too pretty much, but Palestine were stupid to attack the Israelites when they were retreating, they would have had Gaza if they hadn't been so blood-thirsty.

ouchthey would have had gaza but for how long?? do you really think Israel is happy with what its got and does not want any more. They have been expanding there territories since the day they steped in Arab land. You dont need borders to expand territories settlements are enuf. Again I would advise you to wath The Iron Wall which I have posted on another thread.

I'm sure I've read about this in the Guardian weekly.

Don't the palestinians claim they were provoked?

How dare you show the Palestinian side of it, there half humans they dont deserve to be heard. Remember they are always the agressors and Israel are always the defenders. They never provoke. ITs not Israels fault that the Palestinians are blood thirsty inhumane monters which seeIsraelis and look to kill them without any reason what so ever. Gosh .

[EmmaGallen]

Just slightly off topic...
my school did a "schools across boarders" thing where peopel form belfast and dublin got to meet students from israel and Palestine to here what each side had to say and there was an initial "do the israli's have a point" and it was agreed they do, it's quite like here. And teh palestinians were worse of.

Unless I misinterprated the assembly. Jus there was a chance...

[Arminius]

I'm so disappointed I missed the march! :Vampiress:, I'm well jealous! :D Meeting George Galloway as well...
Anyway, Hamas is democratically elected, Israel & friends violate democracy by trying to get rid of Hamas.

[SyedMohsin]

If you think about it, what act of terrorism has been commited (confirmed) by Hamas against Israeli civilians since the elections