Gun ad Knife Crime [Archive] - UK Youth Parliament Forums

Matt. P

03-29-2008, 23:01

Not going as far as martial law, sentences do need to be pushed up a bit. However, the real problem begins at school when they're very young. You don't (or very rarely) see 12-13 years old doing knife crime, but many of them are right little s###s, if you pardon my French. The current education system punishes the teachers who respons and the bullies get better rights than the victims. This leaves an important message for future life; "That they are above the law, they are untouchable, other live is worthless" you get the drift. A lack of things to do, gangs, drugs, easily available guns, urban poverty and complete failure of rehabilition centers can only contribute.

Gotlieb Alexander

03-29-2008, 23:39

Manditory life scentences without the possibility for parole for anyon caught importing or selling guns in Britain

plus we need to end the Ghetto culture of cities by dispersing social housing out of cities and spread evenly around the country

soph41190

03-30-2008, 12:41

Gotlieb Alexander

03-30-2008, 16:08

I agree, however there is a difference between the idiots who get a gun or a knife because they think its cool and those who make a career out of the trade.

I don't want a "community responce" or to look at "root causes" or anything else.

atearth

03-30-2008, 16:12

A surprising amount of these lunatics are under the age of criminal responsibility. Or even if they aren't, they pull sad faces to the jury and they're given 3 years. We need very harsh sentences for these kids. No sympathy, no cuddles, no 'blame the parents', they made the choice they have taken life they should pay for it. I'm sick and tired of sympathy and understanding for the criminal....bad childhood and all that rubbish. The other lad you knifed wasn't responsible. It'll always be rehabilitation vs jail time. I think some of these criminals should be put away for so long that any rehab won't have any effect, they'll never see the light of day again as far as I care. Knife Crime and Gun crime should definitely be talked about in school to very young children, the same way 'not talking to strangers' is, you know the PR policeman, that sort of thing. It's just become too 'acceptable' for my liking. Its accepted as the norm. It's wrong.

there are many types of crime, no noe should be let off when there is rape or death.

On earth the criminal age should be from birth.

A human made a decision to kill another if that is not a crime that deserves life in prision then what is?

The law is not going to change until a little 4 year old girl, blue eyes, blonde hair goes and brutally kills the child of the Prime Mister of England with a Knife!

Spirited discussion

03-30-2008, 19:24

there are many types of crime, no noe should be let off when there is rape or death.

On earth the criminal age should be from birth.

A human made a decision to kill another if that is not a crime that deserves life in prision then what is?

You make rape=to death?
There are many mitigating circumstances - who's to blame when you stab a burgalar in your own home? Of course no-one should be let off for straight murder, they arnt usually - though 30 years is usual.

Criminal age from birth? A 6yr old might stab someone because they're cross, without intent to kill, and kill the person, they may well not be able to control emotions or realise the danger - its not the same as a 16yr old going out and stabbing someone for trespassing on their gangs patch.

soph41190

03-30-2008, 20:25

Atearth:
Gory way of saying it :D but I agree.

soph41190

03-30-2008, 20:27

You make rape=to death?
There are many mitigating circumstances - who's to blame when you stab a burgalar in your own home? Of course no-one should be let off for straight murder, they arnt usually - though 30 years is usual.

Criminal age from birth? A 6yr old might stab someone because they're cross, without intent to kill, and kill the person, they may well not be able to control emotions or realise the danger - its not the same as a 16yr old going out and stabbing someone for trespassing on their gangs patch.
I disagree, I think you have to tear out the problem like a cancer, that means one size fits all. The 6 year old will always remember what it's done, if it got away with it once it can do it again. Not as simple as that but its the attitude we need to change not the society. Deterrence, punish harshly no matter what age. The sooner we stop slapping wrists and start slapping on the cuffs the better!

EmmaGallen

03-30-2008, 20:28

is the criminal age not like 10? Or is that just here? Because on my work exp they were saying how it's being moved up till 18...

soph41190

03-30-2008, 20:30

The age of criminal responisbility is 10. I can't believe the other point though. I thought there was talking of it being lowered to 8. There was an article on it on the BBC website yestarday!

Spirited discussion

03-30-2008, 21:24

The 6 year old will always remember what it's done, if it got away with it once it can do it again.

Do you need to destroy another life though to account for the crime?

98% of murderers do not kill again (Wkipedeia, i know) you need to punish older criminals for their deeds to set an example, so preventing crimes by others.

A six year old being locked up for life solves no problems at all. - Other six year olds are not going to stop to think before commiting a crime simply because they could be sent to jail . I dont see any point in any punsihment at all except to prevent further crime.

atearth

03-30-2008, 21:32

You make rape=to death?
There are many mitigating circumstances - who's to blame when you stab a burgalar in your own home? Of course no-one should be let off for straight murder, they arnt usually - though 30 years is usual.

Crimes like rape and murder are a bigger problem than litter dropping and tax evasion.

Criminals getting killed while in action is a topic for another day (burgalar )

But my view is: Protector of home vs burglar. Criminals forfeit their human rights once they enter a building to commit crime.

When Criminals commit actions they know there is a chance they will be killed!

Gotlieb Alexander

03-30-2008, 21:43

98% of murderers do not kill again (Wkipedeia, i know) you need to punish older criminals for their deeds to set an example, so preventing crimes by others.

Yes but surely a large reason for this is that most murderers will spend a long time in prison

soph41190

03-30-2008, 22:33

Its not the older ones people look up to. Surely you know this from school life. Its each other, the 'cool' clan. No young hooligan's going to give two flying "" if an older criminal goes to jail. You get to the younger ones, you scare them off.

Gotlieb Alexander

03-31-2008, 21:38

While I agree in principle with Soph, by locking up the older ones you can prevent the younger ones from getting involved, not through it being a deterent but by it being impossible. There are too many parents, uncles, cousins and brothers who are influencing young children and telling them that the system doesnt work and that gangs are their best option.

People join gangs because they have no respect for the law, the police and the government and this only happens when they are brought up in an environment where this lifestyle is justified to them

soph41190

03-31-2008, 22:07

I think its a mass consequence of the Domino effect, one of which I don't believe [I]begins and ends[I] with this generation. The problem is much more deep rooted. I'm not sure about parents encouraging their kids to join gangs, but I think its just that's what kids friends do, so they do it, not like 'oooh they won't like me,' but 'oh, well, he's my friend, and he's hanging out with XYZ, so if I want to hang out with my friend, I'll have to get friendly with XYZ'. Gangs get bigger, I also think that with the increase in gun crime, a lot of kids may feel..well wow this is such a huge topic haha I don't know where to start.
Life is boring for kids that is undenyable. You can blab on to them about how lucky they are, NHS, etc...but well, thinking about the NHS all day isn't going to be fun. We aren't allowed to play tag, we can't play in the streets, we can't play too loudly, we can't do this that and the other. Life is BORING for them. You remember the days surely where you'd play act games like, 'gang warfare' having mud fights over camps like turf, its the same thing, only they've swapped dirt for guns, and they've taken the turf war to adulthood. Its a buzz, like paintballing, you think 'wow, yeah I'm Rambo, I'm gonna take you all out!' It's gang mentality and its frightening. But for them, it's a kick, like footy hooliganism, all those sorts of things, they feel brave, or feared, or tough. Mainly because a lot of them will come from backgrounds where they've grown up feeling afraid, demeaned, unintellegent or weak. It starts in early childhood and then you're doomed. If we allow kids to climb trees, twist their ankles, play conkers without protective clothing then they develop that sense of risk, that knowledge of when it starts to hurt. I think a lot of young people haven't fully developed that sense of when fun, becomes dangerous, you climb a tree to high, you fall and break an arm, you won't do it again next time. If you haven't done that, when do you learn 'enough is enough'. So many kids haven't learnt that, and unless we give the next generation's kids that freedom to explore, its going to be a neverending cycle.

Liam Hannan

03-31-2008, 22:08

I would beg to differ.

People join gangs because they are scared, and cannot see any other future for themselves.

When you see violence whenever you walk down the street, and cannot see yourself having a steady job when you're older. When everyone you look up to looks down on you. When you don't have any faith in yourself... that's when you join a gang. Just to fit in.

When you give someone hope for a better future you give them a new chance at life.

soph41190

03-31-2008, 22:31

I've just never bought that one, I'm sure there is an element of fear, but it just feels like a regimented thing that the scientists pen on it, just like 'peer pressure' etc. All contributory. But I have a hard time believing in the one on its own. We're all scared of being attacked these days, we don't all join gangs. It can't be denied that these people get a kick out of it, and here I guess fear does counter in, nothing is more fearful than the guy who was once afraid honestly, not just trying to sound poignant, but if these people are so afraid of their own futures, and then suddenly put into a gang where passers-by fear them, and they feel protected and 'tough', it gives them a kick.

Liam Hannan

03-31-2008, 22:36

I'm not denying that - some people do get a kick out of it; because it's the only time in their whole life they have felt empowered.

They go to school and are told "you're useless"
Everyone in the street looks at them like they're thugs
all they know how to do is to kick out, so they never win any battles with authority.

Is it any wonder they feel completely disengaged?

soph41190

03-31-2008, 22:44

Sometimes I have no sympathy and think, 'well if you didn't act like thugs they wouldn't see you as one'. But its just a vicious circle.

Liam Hannan

03-31-2008, 23:41

Concur.

the only reason I'm espousing all this tolerance theory is that I've seen this tried and I've seen harsh "crackdowns" tried - and only one of them works in the real world.

Gotlieb Alexander

03-31-2008, 23:41

Disrespect for authority > Contempt for authority > Social Exclusion > Social Dissolusionment >> Living outside the system >> Crime >> Lack of alignment with people inside the system >> Further social exclusion >> further social dissolusionment

We need to break the chain

Liam Hannan

03-31-2008, 23:46

Again - nail on the head. But how?

(If Hamsters was here he'd tell us to throw them off a cliff or something, but realistically?)

Hamsterwaffle

04-01-2008, 13:39

Not throw them off a cliff. Put them in the stocks and if that doesn't work give them a bit of a beating.

Leon

07-02-2008, 10:13

There needs to be more police officers on the beat. Not randomly assigned to any areas however, but allocated to "crime hotspot" areas which in London often tends to be buses, parks and perhaps occasionally town centres. This is not a true cure to the problem but simply a means of prevention. To try and cure the problem would be a lot harder but one way we could perhaps start is by reaching the perpetrators of gun and knife crime by the media for example exposing them to poetry, films, radio discussions, testimonies of former knife and gun users that all discourage knife and gun crime. The way to target these people would be to perhaps hold youth conferences, go to youth clubs, to schools, to colleges and to juvenille detention centres to expose youth to this kind media that discourages this kind of crime. Through media, negative role models have done a good job of convincing people to use weapons, now we as positive role models should also do a job using media. As for adults who commit gun and knife crime powerful and emotive (perhaps graphic/gory) adverts shown on TV depicting why it is not a good idea to carry weapons would be in order. It is a sorry society that we live in, but there is always something that we can do.

Ian

07-02-2008, 10:15

Not throw them off a cliff. Put them in the stocks and if that doesn't work give them a bit of a beating.

or get a sock and fill it with loose change, and beat them round the face with it. LOL

soph41190

07-02-2008, 11:39

Life for a Knife.
Murder = life no questions. Why should there be?
Lower age of criminality to 8.
Make anyone over 13 eligable for prison, not juni holiday parks.

Marcus89

07-04-2008, 02:51

My suggestions -

1st conviction of being found by Police, with a knife, but have NOT used it - 3 years suspended sentence.
1st conviction of being found by Police, with a knife, and have used it
- starting point; 7 years.

1st conviction of being found by Police, with a gun, but have NOT used it
- Min. 5 years.
1st conviction of being found by Police, with a gun, but have used it
- starting point; 15 years

2nd convictions for both knife and gun, were the defendant has NOT used it; 2-5 years added on to the original 5 and 7 respectfully, depending on mitigating or aggravating circumstances.

2nd convictions for both knife and gun, were the defendant has used it;
add 7-10 years (circumstances). Applying to both.

3rd Convictions for possesion of Knife or Gun, were the defendant has NOT used it; knife - 15 years, gun - 18 years min. on both.

3rd Convictions for possesion of Knife or Gun, were the defendant has used it; knife - 20 years, gun - 25 years min. on both.

Death by either of these weapons should carry a Mandatory life setence. Min. time spent stands at knife - 30 years, gun - 45 years.

Futher convictions of having possesed a knife or gun, without it being used also carrys a life sentence. Min. time spent; knife - 25 years, gun - 30 years.

Possession of mulitply knives or guns, or conviction of gun trafficing should carry life sentence, and on the latter without parole, even on 1st conviction.

your thoughts?

Richard.Neal

07-06-2008, 23:06

I agree with marcus here...
we need to be tougher on this, but like the government is doing at the moment, it's sadly not as easy as just taking knives and guns off our streets, people can obtain them so easily nowadays.

it's mainly a social issue which needs tackling, if we're going to have any hope of lowering the rate of crime and violence with these sorts of weapons, and indeed any forms or violence all together.

TheVoice

07-06-2008, 23:08

Tougher police would help. Having a police force criminals were genuinely afraid of would greatly help.

SeanH

07-07-2008, 01:54

My suggestions -

1st conviction of being found by Police, with a knife, but have NOT used it - 3 years suspended sentence.
1st conviction of being found by Police, with a knife, and have used it
- starting point; 7 years.

Possession of mulitply knives or guns, or conviction of gun trafficing should carry life sentence, and on the latter without parole, even on 1st conviction.

your thoughts?

Thanks for criminalizing me and others and taking away our rights.

TheVoice

07-07-2008, 03:37

You don't have a right to carry a weapon, and if you are, you're a criminal. So he has in fact done neither.

Paul

07-07-2008, 03:39

You don't have a right to carry a weapon, and if you are, you're a criminal. So he has in fact done neither.

I believe you are allowed a 3inch flip knife - I know many who carry Swiss Army Knives (mainly my old teachers though).

TheVoice

07-07-2008, 11:53

In which case SeanH wouldn't have been 'criminalised'.

Richard.Neal

07-07-2008, 17:03

regardless of what size the blade is, it's still an offensive weapon, used or not.
which i'm afraid, is somewhat illegal to carry around with you

Paul

07-07-2008, 17:54

regardless of what size the blade is, it's still an offensive weapon, used or not.which I'm afraid, is somewhat illegal to carry around with youCriminal justice act states a folding knife with a blade less than 3 inches is legal to carry, though could still be classed as an offensive weapon if used as such. Switch knives, flick knives and disguised blades are not legal regardless of length.If you are carrying a larger knife then you need to have reason to do so; a chef carrying a roll of knifes on his person on the way to or from work is not going to be charged, but the same bloke carrying the same on the way to a football match may well be.

TheVoice

07-07-2008, 18:03

Sounds sensible.

Marcus89

07-07-2008, 22:15

Thanks for criminalizing me and others and taking away our rights.

pardon? ok - YOUR rights? your rights to carry a blade? What about the rights of the 18 boys stabbed to death in London? what about the rights of a 14 year old boy for **** sake who died 3 weeks after being stabbed? What about the rights of thier families?

Knife crime, and gun crime is getting seriously out of hand, all those without good or lawful reason to carry then should be hit hard, and I mean very hard by the Criminal Justice system - I beleive those sentences are more than adaequet.

Paul

07-07-2008, 22:26

pardon? ok - YOUR rights? your rights to carry a blade? What about the rights of the 18 boys stabbed to death in London? what about the rights of a 14 year old boy for **** sake who died 3 weeks after being stabbed? What about the rights of thier families?

Knife crime, and gun crime is getting seriously out of hand, all those without good or lawful reason to carry then should be hit hard, and I mean very hard by the Criminal Justice system - I beleive those sentences are more than adaequet.

but you implied that anyone with a knife would be criminalised - no matter what the reason. What about divers(knives to cut out of entanglements)? People cutting back large bushes? etc - you implied a total ban on knives in public, even to and from work - or in the performance of duties.

Marcus89

07-07-2008, 22:29

but you implied that anyone with a knife would be criminalised - no matter what the reason. What about divers(knives to cut out of entanglements)? People cutting back large bushes? etc - you implied a total ban on knives in public, even to and from work - or in the performance of duties.

No sorry, I didn't imply - you assumed!

PKDhande

07-07-2008, 22:30

Marcus89

07-07-2008, 22:30

Can I point out Cameron has said (in his recent campaign) you'd do prison if you have no valid reason for carrying a knife.

well then I must say, for the first time, I actually agree with Mr. Cameron, however I would prefer this be a Labour policy.

Paul

07-07-2008, 22:34

My suggestions -

1st conviction of being found by Police, with a knife, but have NOT used it - 3 years suspended sentence.

you mentioned no exemptions therefore you implied that anyone with a knife was criminalised.

PKDhande

07-07-2008, 22:34

well then I must say, for the first time, I actually agree with Mr. Cameron, however I would prefer this be a Labour policy.

Labour? Ah yes that party in power that really is out-of-touch with the British people... ;)

Paul

07-07-2008, 22:36

Can I point out Cameron has said (in his recent campaign) you'd do prison if you have no valid reason for carrying a knife.

Can I point out that I was only defending people who had valid reasons.

a chef carrying a roll of knifes on his person on the way to or from work is not going to be charged, but the same bloke carrying the same on the way to a football match may well be.

Marcus89

07-07-2008, 22:38

you mentioned no exemptions therefore you implied that anyone with a knife was criminalised.

Exemptions already exist - so why point them out again?

My suggestions were merely a reform on the law.

Paul

07-07-2008, 22:40

Exemptions already exist - so why point them out again?

You talked about a new system of punishment - I presumed this new "tightened up system" would have no exemptions as you didn't mention any...

I noticed your ninja fast edit of 'reform' - you did not originally make this clear.

Marcus89

07-07-2008, 22:42

You talked about a new system of punishment - I presumed this new "tightened up system" would have no exemptions as you didn't mention any...

I noticed your ninja fast edit of 'reform' - you did not originally make this clear.

Ok, my apologies, no it still has the lawful exemptions, it has too, at the end of the day chefs aren't attacking 14, 15 and 16 year olds in London.

Paul

07-07-2008, 22:46

Ok, my apologies, no it still has the lawful exemptions, it has too, at the end of the day chefs aren't attacking 14, 15 and 16 year olds in London.

I don't see why anyone needs anything more than a Swiss army knife - that is the most someone would need* unless their job/hobby dictated otherwise (aforementioned Divers/Chefs/Sailors/Fishermen/Butchers etc).

*as an 'on the offchance' for example for cutting an apple in a picnic.

Marcus89

07-07-2008, 22:51

I don't see why anyone needs anything more than a Swiss army knife - that is the most someone would need* unless their job/hobby dictated otherwise (aforementioned Divers/Chefs/Sailors/Fishermen/Butchers etc).

*as an 'on the offchance' for example for cutting an apple in a picnic.

It's a culture that needs to be stamped out, full stop. It's not going to be easier, but it can be done - We live in an amazing country, which has lost its way a little, and I for one want to see it return to glory.

SeanH

07-08-2008, 01:46

It's a culture that needs to be stamped out, full stop. It's not going to be easier, but it can be done - We live in an amazing country, which has lost its way a little, and I for one want to see it return to glory.

What the **** are you arguing against? The apple skin disliking culture? or the "a blades a useful tool with multiple non dedicated reasons" culture?

Your argument has no content.

To argue another quote.
Can I point out Cameron has said (in his recent campaign) you'd do prison if you have no valid reason for carrying a knife.

What does valid mean? ANY reason can be valid. Nowhere does it say you have to verify your reason.