View Full Version : The Nativity
Cowgirl36
06-08-2008, 22:35
Ok I've been puzzling over this for some time, well a whole 6 months actually, and everyone I've asked doesn't have a clue, religious and non-religious people. So i want an answer, preferably before this christmas.
Who is/was Jesus related to?
Is/was he a clone of God?
Was he half God half Mary?
Was he a random person with no unique genetics?
I'm talking in terms of religiously. If your not religious then well you can ignore the question, but, though I'm not religious, it has puzzled me since Christmas and I just want the religious view on the matter.
Ok I've been puzzling over this for some time, well a whole 6 months actually, and everyone I've asked doesn't have a clue, religious and non-religious people. So i want an answer, preferably before this christmas.
Who is/was Jesus related to?
Is/was he a clone of God?
Was he half God half Mary?
Was he a random person with no unique genetics?
I'm talking in terms of religiously. If your not religious then well you can ignore the question, but, though I'm not religious, it has puzzled me since Christmas and I just want the religious view on the matter.
Jesus is said to be descended from King David through Joseph - so it looks as if the body was the product of Mary&Joseph but the soul was God. (in the bible Jesus is known as 'the word' also - eg "In the Beginning there was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God.")
Jesus was God, but a seperate identity/person within the one God/consciousness.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
tinted_rose
06-09-2008, 14:49
I would like to point out that when a mention is made to "Jesus Christ", Christ isn't Jesus, Jesus had Christ WITHIN him.
Jesus was a good man, not God man, he was genetically human...and in alot of ways he was just like any body else, except for the fact he never sinned and performed many marvellous miracles :)
Hamsterwaffle
06-09-2008, 14:52
On the matter of Jesus, this whole dieing for our sins thing, is not that big a deal. He could just come back to life, to him thats like shaving his head for our sins.
I would like to point out that when a mention is made to "Jesus Christ", Christ isn't Jesus, Jesus had Christ WITHIN him.
Jesus was a good man, not God man, he was genetically human...and in alot of ways he was just like any body else, except for the fact he never sinned and performed many marvellous miracles :)
He did sin, he showed wrath, at least once, that's a deadly sin! And he committed it, by the Holy Book's own admition!
For all we know, no offense to Christians or other Jesus followers, Jesus could have been a street magician and was hailed as the son of God because of his magic tricks of 'turning water into wine', maybe coming back from the dead too, I mean the story of the crucifiction (hope that's correct spelling) sounds like a generic coming back from the dead magic trick, man is 'killed' man's corpse disappears, man 'comes back to life' but was never actually dead.
He did sin, he showed wrath, at least once, that's a deadly sin! And he committed it, by the Holy Book's own admition!
For all we know, no offense to Christians or other Jesus followers, Jesus could have been a street magician and was hailed as the son of God because of his magic tricks of 'turning water into wine', maybe coming back from the dead too, I mean the story of the crucifiction (hope that's correct spelling) sounds like a generic coming back from the dead magic trick, man is 'killed' man's corpse disappears, man 'comes back to life' but was never actually dead.
crucifixion
I spelt it like that originally, it didn't look right... neither spellings do, stupid english... stupid brain!
I spelt it like that originally, it didn't look right... neither spellings do, stupid english... stupid brain!
Maybe stupid latin?
There is not really one "set" view becuase the different religions and dominions have different views of Jesus, and each has the own religious texts to bak up their cliams, which are historically as worthless as each other.
In the traditional Bible view however Jesus is I believe predicted as the Messiah in the Old Testement as being the descended of the King of the Jews (David). Although Mary was supposedly a virgin it seems quite a coincidence Joseph was mentioned as being a decendent of David as well (some people thing the word virgin is a mistranslation of "young women"). However this should be taken with as much grain of salt as food product saying its low in sodium, which means don't trust it all. There are several gaping historical inacurracies in the New Testament, which is not surprsing as it was one thousand years later but the Roman Catholic Church, directed by the Pope (not that he'd have a vest interest or anything, what with his position based on being the descendent of St. Paul... nor its not like he gained any sort of wealth or power being in charge of a tyrannical religious sect at the time)
There is not really one "set" view becuase the different religions and dominions have different views of Jesus, and each has the own religious texts to bak up their cliams, which are historically as worthless as each other.
In the traditional Bible view however Jesus is I believe predicted as the Messiah in the Old Testement as being the descended of the King of the Jews (David). Although Mary was supposedly a virgin it seems quite a coincidence Joseph was mentioned as being a decendent of David as well (some people thing the word virgin is a mistranslation of "young women"). However this should be taken with as much grain of salt as food product saying its low in sodium, which means don't trust it all. There are several gaping historical inacurracies in the New Testament, which is not surprsing as it was one thousand years later but the Roman Catholic Church, directed by the Pope (not that he'd have a vest interest or anything, what with his position based on being the descendent of St. Paul... nor its not like he gained any sort of wealth or power being in charge of a tyrannical religious sect at the time)
I thought the bible was pretty much set out in the third century?
tinted_rose
06-09-2008, 18:10
On the matter of Jesus, this whole dieing for our sins thing, is not that big a deal. He could just come back to life, to him thats like shaving his head for our sins.
what on Earth??
Jesus could not just "come back to life" ... the Christian view point is that he was resurrected from the grave by God.
And even if he could you seem to have completely ignored the absolute horrificness of being flagellated and crucified. Look it up, it is not something which should be taken lightly in the slightest - it was put in place by the Romans, and it was even law that no Roman could be killed by crucifixion it was THAT terrible.
And on top of that - bear in mind the opinion of heaven and hell - Jesus took the sin of the ENTIRE WORLD on his shoulders... it is my friends very strong opinion that Jesus was in hell until he was resurrected (I'm still a bit ishy about the after life)
Cowgirl36
06-09-2008, 18:15
what on Earth??
Jesus could not just "come back to life" ... the Christian view point is that he was resurrected from the grave by God.
And even if he could you seem to have completely ignored the absolute horrificness of being flagellated and crucified. Look it up, it is not something which should be taken lightly in the slightest - it was put in place by the Romans, and it was even law that no Roman could be killed by crucifixion it was THAT terrible.
And on top of that - bear in mind the opinion of heaven and hell - Jesus took the sin of the ENTIRE WORLD on his shoulders... it is my friends very strong opinion that Jesus was in hell until he was resurrected (I'm still a bit ishy about the after life)
So why Jesus, why not bring alive other people too??
tinted_rose
06-09-2008, 18:20
He did sin, he showed wrath, at least once, that's a deadly sin! And he committed it, by the Holy Book's own admition!
I would like to highlight though that when Jesus showed wrath, for example in the marketplace temple, Jesus was not showing the wrath of man but the wrath of God. His reactions are seen to be for the "right" reasons and to accomplish God's will.
Seeing as the definition of sin is to go against the will of God, I think it is pretty clear that as Jesus was in keeping with God's will, he did in fact never sin.
"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." - 2 Corinthians 5:21 (NIV)
tinted_rose
06-09-2008, 18:24
So why Jesus, why not bring alive other people too??
You have to understand that Jesus was not just any other person, he had the very essence of Christ in him. Also he didn't just come back to life and start living a normal life again - for alot of people his resurrection was confirming proof that he had in fact been the son of God
Cowgirl36
06-09-2008, 18:27
You have to understand that Jesus was not just any other person, he had the very essence of Christ in him. Also he didn't just come back to life and start living a normal life again - for alot of people his resurrection was confirming proof that he had in fact been the son of God
But alot of people come back alive now-they don't have christ in them do they??
I think Jesus existed, just think he was lucky, that he was always in the right place at the right time.
tinted_rose
06-09-2008, 18:37
I think that's different though - they haven't been "resurrected" in the same manner or meaning
Alot of the people that have died and come back to life claim religious experience from it though
what on Earth??
Jesus could not just "come back to life" ... the Christian view point is that he was resurrected from the grave by God.
And even if he could you seem to have completely ignored the absolute horrificness of being flagellated and crucified. Look it up, it is not something which should be taken lightly in the slightest - it was put in place by the Romans, and it was even law that no Roman could be killed by crucifixion it was THAT terrible.
And on top of that - bear in mind the opinion of heaven and hell - Jesus took the sin of the ENTIRE WORLD on his shoulders... it is my friends very strong opinion that Jesus was in hell until he was resurrected (I'm still a bit ishy about the after life)
Didnt Jesus say something along the lines of 'see you in heaven' to the good thief (Dismas) who was crucified with him?
tinted_rose
06-10-2008, 15:39
The view I was portraying is that Jesus died on the cross, went to hell, was resurrected, seen by hundreds, and then ascended to heaven.
The view I was portraying is that Jesus died on the cross, went to hell, was resurrected, seen by hundreds, and then ascended to heaven.
I dont have the bible in front of me (I'm in Costa) but I think Jesus says "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise."
tinted_rose
06-10-2008, 17:10
I dont have the bible in front of me (I'm in Costa) but I think Jesus says "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise."
I think the verse you are refering to is Luke 23:43; and it must be said that it varies in different translatons.
'George M. Lamsa, in his translation of the New Testament from Aramaic sources, renders it as follows: "Truly I say to you today, You will be with Me in Paradise." '
As you can see, this verse simply says that Jesus said that the theif and him will be in "paradise" together... someday.
Alternatively the Bible could be just a book, and Mr. Lamsa could have been mistranslating, or it could not mean anything at all in an empirical way...
I think the verse you are refering to is Luke 23:43; and it must be said that it varies in different translatons.
'George M. Lamsa, in his translation of the New Testament from Aramaic sources, renders it as follows: "Truly I say to you today, You will be with Me in Paradise." '
As you can see, this verse simply says that Jesus said that the theif and him will be in "paradise" together... someday.
isnt the teaching though that the gates of paradise opened on good Friday for believers - and on judgemnt day for non believers?
tinted_rose
06-10-2008, 18:06
that might be a belief in a branch of Christianity, but it is not the precise view point of every single Christian.
And in response to Matt P. The Problem with english translations of the bible is that the original texts were written in hebrew, aramaic, and greek - where (like English really) one word can be translated to mean a couple of different things, there fore any translation is always open for interpretation.
Furthermore as none of the original manuscripts still exist the ones we have are a product of human reproduction, and it is therefore not inconcievable that small human errors have occured - for example punctuation which can make a difference in meaning
BlackPrincess
06-10-2008, 20:18
I am quite religious so I can answer this one.
Jesus is the son of God
He is not half Mary. He came on this earth in the form of man so He could save each and every one of us.
He is not a clone of God. He is God. He is part of the holy trinity. "God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit." Jesus is obviously God the son.
Jesus is not just some random person. He is the chosen one.
Well I wouldn't say "obviously" or "is"....
I would like to point out that when a mention is made to "Jesus Christ", Christ isn't Jesus, Jesus had Christ WITHIN him.
Sorry, I am not sure what you mean by this, could you please clarify it for me?
Jesus is fully man and fully God.
On the matter of Jesus, this whole dieing for our sins thing, is not that big a deal. He could just come back to life, to him thats like shaving his head for our sins.
Dying a painful and shameful death on our behalf - for our sins is not the same as shaving his head.
He did sin, he showed wrath, at least once, that's a deadly sin! And he committed it, by the Holy Book's own admition!
For all we know, no offense to Christians or other Jesus followers, Jesus could have been a street magician and was hailed as the son of God because of his magic tricks of 'turning water into wine', maybe coming back from the dead too, I mean the story of the crucifiction (hope that's correct spelling) sounds like a generic coming back from the dead magic trick, man is 'killed' man's corpse disappears, man 'comes back to life' but was never actually dead.
Street magicians do not have followers of hundreds of millions of people world wide. In Jesus' day there were other magicians why didn't they get any recognition whilst Jesus did?
There is not really one "set" view becuase the different religions and dominions have different views of Jesus, and each has the own religious texts to bak up their cliams, which are historically as worthless as each other.
In the traditional Bible view however Jesus is I believe predicted as the Messiah in the Old Testement as being the descended of the King of the Jews (David). Although Mary was supposedly a virgin it seems quite a coincidence Joseph was mentioned as being a decendent of David as well (some people thing the word virgin is a mistranslation of "young women"). However this should be taken with as much grain of salt as food product saying its low in sodium, which means don't trust it all. There are several gaping historical inacurracies in the New Testament, which is not surprsing as it was one thousand years later but the Roman Catholic Church, directed by the Pope (not that he'd have a vest interest or anything, what with his position based on being the descendent of St. Paul... nor its not like he gained any sort of wealth or power being in charge of a tyrannical religious sect at the time)
There is only one correct view of Jesus. This is the view expressed in the Bible, it is irrelevant what any other book has to say about Jesus. Could you please elaborate on the "several gaping historical inaccuracies"?
what on Earth??
Jesus could not just "come back to life" ... the Christian view point is that he was resurrected from the grave by God.
And even if he could you seem to have completely ignored the absolute horrificness of being flagellated and crucified. Look it up, it is not something which should be taken lightly in the slightest - it was put in place by the Romans, and it was even law that no Roman could be killed by crucifixion it was THAT terrible.
And on top of that - bear in mind the opinion of heaven and hell - Jesus took the sin of the ENTIRE WORLD on his shoulders... it is my friends very strong opinion that Jesus was in hell until he was resurrected (I'm still a bit ishy about the after life)
Very True.
I am quite religious so I can answer this one.
Jesus is the son of God
He is not half Mary. He came on this earth in the form of man so He could save each and every one of us.
He is not a clone of God. He is God. He is part of the holy trinity. "God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit." Jesus is obviously God the son.
Jesus is not just some random person. He is the chosen one.
This is the correct view of Jesus.
soph41190
07-04-2008, 14:36
Sorry, I am not sure what you mean by this, could you please clarify it for me?
Jesus is fully man and fully God.
Dying a painful and shameful death on our behalf - for our sins is not the same as shaving his head.
Street magicians do not have followers of hundreds of millions of people world wide. In Jesus' day their were other magicians why didn't they get any recognition whilst Jesus did?
There is only one correct view of Jesus. This is the view expressed in the Bible, it is irrelevant what any other book has to say about Jesus. Could you please elaborate on the "several gaping historical inaccuracies"?
Very True.
This is the correct view of Jesus.
There is NO correct version of Jesus. Extremism comes from the clashes of ideas of what the 'truth' is. Fact = we'll never know the truth. Let folk have their beliefs, but everyone needs to understand that no matter how deeply they believe, they still don't know the truth. They must still keep an open mind. Absolutes are even pettier on the unprovable .
There is NO correct version of Jesus. Extremism comes from the clashes of ideas of what the 'truth' is. Fact = we'll never know the truth. Let folk have their beliefs, but everyone needs to understand that no matter how deeply they believe, they still don't know the truth. They must still keep an open mind. Absolutes are even pettier on the unprovable .
I respect your opinion. Although, please allow me to disagree with the statement "Fact = we'll never know the truth" The truth of Jesus is there. It is just a case of whether or not one chooses to accept it.
soph41190
07-04-2008, 21:34
That's like me saying 'Fact - Santa Claus is there, whether or not you choose to believe it.' It's not fact, its a belief, sure a creditable belief but a belief.
Jesus WAS there! If that makes you happy, he has been proven to have existed and was indubitably a brilliant and wonderful man, but highly unlikely (or perhaps, just AS likely) to be a son of any God, and is now dead.
I don't know about any one but I don't like the idea of running my life according to some often prejudiced and man-written scripture that is completley based upon the opinions of men, regular blokes, not omnipotent or God-like, just men, not unlike the followers of Osama Bin-Laden, or Mandella, or any other iconic figure. Only because it was written 2000 years ago, it MUST be the word of God.
In my opinion, to TRULY respect God, whichever it is you worship, one must respect that they will NEVER understand God.
That's like me saying 'Fact - Santa Claus is there, whether or not you choose to believe it.' It's not fact, its a belief, sure a creditable belief but a belief.
Jesus WAS there! If that makes you happy, he has been proven to have existed and was indubitably a brilliant and wonderful man, but highly unlikely (or perhaps, just AS likely) to be a son of any God, and is now dead.
I don't know about any one but I don't like the idea of running my life according to some often prejudiced and man-written scripture that is completley based upon the opinions of men, regular blokes, not omnipotent or God-like, just men, not unlike the followers of Osama Bin-Laden, or Mandella, or any other iconic figure. Only because it was written 2000 years ago, it MUST be the word of God.
In my opinion, to TRULY respect God, whichever it is you worship, one must respect that they will NEVER understand God.
The correct view of Jesus is that He is the son of God. I understand that people may perceive Him in different ways, although that does not change the fact that there is only one correct view of Jesus. Jesus should be perceived according to the way that way that He is. How do we learn how Jesus is? Through understanding the Bible and having a personal relationship with Him. Jesus is not dead due the fact that He rose again on the third day after his death.
Because one doesn't like to run their life according to God's word it does not prove God's word wrong in any way. The Bible is inspired by God and written through the hands of man not simply "man-written". You are right in saying that the men who God used to write the Bible were regular blokes. By believing in the Bible Christians do not give glory to men who wrote the Bible but they give glory to the one who told them what to write. The age of the Bible has nothing to do with the reasons that Christians believe it to be God's word. How in your opinion does truly respecting God equivalate to thinking that you will never understand God?
Well I wouldn't say "obviously" or "is"....
looooooool :) :D
There is only one correct view of Jesus. This is the view expressed in the Bible
Oh, really, how incredibly stupid and myopic of me...
The Bible is the ture word becuase you say it is. The proof I was so desperately soul-searching for. I better burn all the hundreds of other religous texts from all those pesky other religious who have the same levels of histroical accuracy (zilch) as the Bible which dsiagree with it.
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